Johanna Rothman：專案管理之道（圖靈訪談）

圖靈訪談之二十四：專訪Johanna Rothman

Johanna Rothman是世界知名的管理顧問，早年曾與軟體業界公認的泰斗級人物、思想家傑拉爾德•溫伯格（Gerald M. Weinberg）共事，並從他那裡汲取到諸多軟體工程與專案管理方面的經驗。她擅長高科技產品開發管理，於1994年創辦了Rothman諮詢公司，幫助企業改善產品研發的管理水平，最大化管理和技術人員的生產力，提升產品質量。

Johanna Rothman將自己的經驗和觀察寫入書中，她的書實用而兼具深度，完全沒有學究氣。其中《專案管理修煉之道》一書曾榮獲Jolt生產效率獎，並位列“軟體工程最佳百書”的第67名。

近期，圖靈社群有幸邀得Johanna Rothman接受訪談，以下是中英文對照版的訪談記錄。

iTuring: As we know, you majored in Computer Science and then were engaged in project management. After that, you incorporated a company to do software development consulting. Would you please briefly talk about some milestones or turning points in your interesting career?

圖靈社群：我們瞭解到，您主修了電腦科學專業，然後從事專案管理工作，後來經營公司承接軟體開發諮詢。在您這麼有意思的職業生涯中，有哪些里程碑或轉折點呢？

Johanna Rothman: I was also a tester for a while, so I have a holistic perspective. That was a turning point. I had always tracked my defects in my engineering notebook, but now I was paid to look for other people's defects. And they didn't always appreciate knowing about them! So I had to learn ways of telling developers—people whom I identified with as my peers—about their problems. That was a turning point.

Johanna Rothman：我還做過一段時間的測試，因此能擁有整體性的視角。那正是我的轉折點。我一直在我的工程筆記上記錄自己的缺點，而現在則可以憑藉尋找他人的缺點而獲得報酬。他們有時候還不太高興獲知自己的缺點呢！因此，我需要學會如何與這些作為我的同事的開發人員交流他們的問題。這真的是個轉折點。

At that same company, no one organized the testing part of the release. We had about 100, maybe 120 people working on the release. And we had no one working on the coordination of the beta test. That drove me nuts. So I started running that part of the project. No one told me to, but no one told me I couldn't. So I did. When we had our next project, I assumed I would run the beta test again. So did everyone else! That’s when I started running large-ish projects.

正是在這個公司，釋出版的測試工作沒有人來組織。當時有100多個，可能是120個工程師在做釋出版。我們沒有任何人擔當beta測試的協調工作。那真是讓我抓狂。因此我開始承擔專案的測試部分。沒人讓我這樣做，但也沒人告訴我不能這樣做啊。於是我就去做。當我們開始下一個專案的時候，我就假定自己會再次承擔beta測試。其他所有人也都是這樣想的！那就是我運作較大型專案的開端了。

After a couple of beta test projects, the company asked me to run the entire software release, which was a program. Then, I ran a hardware/software program. The rest is history.

經過幾個beta測試專案後，公司就讓我負責整個軟體釋出版，那是個整體方案。然後，我就開始運作硬體/軟體的方案。剩下的事情你們都知道了。

iTuring: What working process do you usually take when you join a problematic development team as a consultant?

圖靈社群：以諮詢師的身份加入有問題的軟體開發團隊時，您一般會以什麼樣的流程來開展工作呢？

Johanna Rothman: First, I see what's actually going on. The problems might be in the team. But the problems might be in the management decisions before the project even gets to the team, or that management changes the project goals as the project proceeds. Or that the team is distributed and no one has accounted for that in the way the project is organized. So it's critical to look and see what’s going on before deciding what to do. That's my working process: observe first. Then decide what to do.

Johanna Rothman： 首先，我要了解實際的狀況。可能是團隊有問題；也可能在團隊還沒承接專案時，管理決策就有問題；還可能是在專案進行中管理層變更了目標；或者專案團隊分散各地，卻沒有人負責專案的組織工作。因此，在決定對策之前，瞭解並掌握狀況是至關重要的。這就是我的工作流程：首先是調研，然後再決定要做什麼。

**iTuring:**You discussed the impact of “power” on your career in a previous interview. In your opinion, what are the positive and negative effects of power in project management?

圖靈社群：在此前的訪談中，您提到過“權力”對職業生涯的影響。請問您是如何看待“權力”在軟體專案管理中的正面和負面作用呢？

Johanna Rothman: Power is what you make of it. Power is not inherently positive or negative—it's how you use it. If you use it to stab people in the back, it's negative. But if you use it to accomplish work, to lift everyone up, it's positive.

Johanna Rothman： 所謂權力，都是人造的。權力本身無所謂正面負面——要取決於如何使用。如果權力用於暗箭傷人，那就是負面的。如果用於完成工作、用於催人奮進，那就是正面的。

I've been writing a lot about influence this year and leading influence tutorials, which always leads us to a discussion of power. In effect, other people give you power. So you have an obligation to use your power wisely. And, if you use it to create a positive work environment and release a great product, then you have used your power well.

今年，我寫了很多關於影響力的文章，也帶了影響力的培訓，經常會討論到權力。實質上，權力都是他人所賦予的。因此需要逼迫自己睿智地運用權力。如果能以之營造正面的工作環境，併發布優異的產品，那就是權力運用得當了。

iTuring: Looking back on your project management career, what lessons would you like to share?

圖靈社群：回顧多年的專案管理生涯，請問您有哪些值得分享的教訓呢？

Johanna Rothman: Don't think you can predict the future! If you really had a crystal ball, you could go to Las Vegas, or the equivalent place in China and gamble and make a lot of money. Especially in projects, things happen. Sometimes, those things are great. More often, those things are not so great. So you have to be prepared to accept what happens and replan.

Johanna Rothman：別妄圖去預測未來！如果覺得自己真的能預測未來，那就去拉斯維加斯或中國的類似地方（澳門）賭上幾手，贏幾座金山銀山吧。不過，在專案管理中，變幻才是永恆。有時候，發生的是好事；更多時候，發生的是壞事。因此，我們需要準備好接受現實、重新計劃。

iTuring: Software development has been constantly advancing at the technical side in recent years. At the human side, how do you think the management of software development is evolving?

圖靈社群：近年來，軟體開發在技術層面上持續地進步。那麼，在人的因素上，您覺得軟體開發的管理層面有哪些改進呢？

Johanna Rothman: Here in the US, more managers are realizing that maintaining a sustainable pace is how you get the most out of people. I hope it's the same in China. And, a few more managers are starting to realize that multitasking prevents people from making progress. I do hope the Chinese managers are realizing that too.

Johanna Rothman：在美國，越來越多的經理人認識到，保持持續的進步是使人們產生最大效能的方式。但願在中國也是如此。此外，還有些經理人開始意識到，多工會阻礙人們進步。我也很希望中國的經理人能夠意識到這一點。

iTuring: Listening is one of the most important skills for a project manager. Would you suggest some important listening techniques for them? And what is the most common mistake others make while listening?

圖靈社群：傾聽是一個專案經理非常重要的技能，請問您在傾聽時都有哪些技巧、技能？人們在傾聽時，最常犯的錯誤是什麼？

**Johanna Rothman:**Talking, or getting ready to talk! I do this too, which is why I recognize it. Active listening, staying in the moment, really listening with your whole being to the other person is difficult and takes energy. Sometimes I take notes, which helps me stay in the moment.

Johanna Rothman： 訴說，或者訴說的衝動！我自己也犯這樣的錯誤，這也是為什麼我能認識到這一點。積極聆聽、專注當下、全身心地聆聽別人講話是非常困難且消耗精力的。有時候我會做點筆記，這能幫助我專注當下。

iTuring: As a new project management skill, Kanban System seems quite easy to implement. Do you think so? What is the pitfall people tend to fall into while implementing it?

圖靈社群：看板，作為新湧現的專案管理技能，看起來很容易實施。您認為是這樣嗎？使用看板時，最容易陷入的誤區是什麼？

Johanna Rothman: I do think Kanban is easy to implement. People sometimes have trouble limiting the amount of work in progress for each queue. The other thing I've seen is that if the team is not cross-functional, sometimes the team needs columns such as “In Development” and “Ready for Test” and “In Test”. The “Ready for Test” is a queue that might not have a WIP limit, but “In Development” and “In Test” do have WIP limits. This is good because then the board tells you right away if you have a problem where the developers are over-developing or not. I really like Kanban for pointing out the bottlenecks in a team.

Johanna Rothman：我確實認同看板是易於實施的。有時候，人們會在限制每個佇列的進行中任務數量方面遇到困難。我還見到過另一個情況，如果團隊不是跨職能的，那麼有時候就會需要如“開發中”、“可測試”、“測試中”等列。“可測試”是可能沒有WIP限制的佇列，但“開發中”和“測試中”卻是有WIP限制的。這樣的好處是，當開發人員處於過度開發時，看板能馬上讓你看到問題的所在。我非常欣賞看板能指出團隊瓶頸的功能。

iTuring: In your opinion, agile development isn't an excuse of working without discipline. Compared to other developing methods, it requires a more disciplined team. Could you share your experience on developing such a team?

圖靈社群：您曾經指出，敏捷並非不按規範工作的藉口。相對其他軟體開發生命週期，敏捷需要團隊遵守更多紀律。 是否能分享在培養敏捷團隊的紀律方面的心得呢？

Johanna Rothman: Every time I work on an agile team, I am happily surprised at how much more we accomplish in the same amount of time. Everyone is so focused on quality. Everyone is so focused on schedule. Everyone wants to make sure we deliver what the product owner wants. When agile works, it's like a well-oiled machine. It's fun.

Johanna Rothman：每次在敏捷團隊中工作時，我都很驚喜地發現，在同樣的時間內，我們竟然能夠多完成如此多的工作。每個人都如此專注於質量、專注於日程。每個人都希望確保我們所交付的是客戶所需要的內容。當真正達到敏捷的狀態時，我們就像一臺運轉暢順的機器，那是有趣的體驗。

That's because in agile the entire team focuses on a team definition of done. You can't get a feature to done unless the team agrees it's done and you can demo it to a product owner. And, it's a feature, not a piece of the architecture. So, you can't spend months working on infrastructure without a feature.

究其原因，在敏捷過程中，整個團隊都關注團隊對“完成”的定義。如果不是整個團隊都認可的“完成”，並能演示給客戶看，那就不算完成一個特性。那是一個完整的功能，而非整體架構的一個碎片。因此，我們不能經年累月地開發不包含任何特性的基礎架構。

I've worked on several teams like this, and every time, even when we had our frustrations, we felt as if we were delivering a high quality product. We never worried about that.

我曾在幾個這樣的團隊中工作過。每一次，即便我們遇到挫折，感覺仍像在交付高質量的產品一樣。對此，我們從未擔心。

iTuring: You are a co-host of PSL (Problem Solving Leadership) workshop, and we think China needs such activities too. Would you please briefly introduce the workshop, and how you organize PSL workshop?

圖靈社群：您是PSL（Problem Solving Leadership，解決問題的領導力）研討班的主辦人之一，我們認為中國也很需要類似的活動。是否可以簡要介紹這個活動及其組織方式？

Johanna Rothman: PSL is about how each individual human being solves problems. We, as instructors, help participants see what their default ways of problem solving are. Then we help them see alternatives. Then we practice, practice, practice! The workshop is all simulations and debriefs in teams. That way it is safe to learn. If you make a mistake, it’s not a problem.

Johanna Rothman： PSL研討班的主旨是每個人如何解決問題。作為講師，我們會幫助學員認清他們自身解決問題的預設方式。然後，我們會讓他們瞭解其他方式。接著，我們不斷實踐，實踐，再實踐！整個研討班的過程，都是以團隊組織的模擬和探討。那是一種很安全的學習方式，即便犯錯也沒關係。

iTuring: Have you ever worked with Chinese software development teams? What do you think of them? What advice would you like to give them?

圖靈社群：您是否有跟中國的團隊合作過？對中國的軟體開發團隊，有哪些看法和建議呢？

Johanna Rothman: I have not yet been to China, so I have not worked with Chinese software development teams. I suspect that since Chinese people are human, they are like many of the other people I have worked with! My advice is this: treat the other people as if they are human, too. Observe what is happening. Make your best educated guess about what to do, don't be afraid to replan if you see things are not working according to your plan.

Johanna Rothman：我還沒到過中國，所以並沒有跟中國的軟體開發團隊合作過。我想，既然中國人也是人，你們跟我合作過的其他國家的人應該差不多吧！我的建議是：將其他人視為人。觀察正在發生的事情，呼叫你們的全部學識來推斷行動計劃。如果情況的發展並不盡如計劃，也要敢於去重新計劃。

iTuring: You once mentioned that you wrote many books and papers because you were used to exploring a subject by talking/writing about it. Can you talk about how writing helps you exploring and solving problems?

圖靈社群：您曾經談到，因為要通過演講或寫作的方式來研究某個主題，所以您創作了那麼多圖書和論文。是否能描述一下，創作是如何幫助你探索和解決問題的？

Johanna Rothman: When I write about a problem, I have to clarify my thoughts, or people don't understand what I am saying. I have to break the problem apart and put it back together. I need to use examples, which always helps the reader.

Johanna Rothman：當闡述某個問題時，我必須釐清自己的思路，否則人們會不知所云。因此，我需要切割問題，然後重新組合。我還需要使用例子，而這種方式常常對讀者很有幫助。

If I can write it down and make sure other people can understand it, then I am sure I understand it fully.

一旦我能夠描述清楚，確保其他人都能理解，那我就能保證自己是完全理解了這個問題。

iTuring: Manage It! ranks No. 67 among the Top 100 Best Software Engineering Books, Ever. Its Chinese edition is also selling very well. Are you working or planning on a new book on software management? Apart from the content in Manage It!, what suggestions would you like to give Chinese readers about further study?

圖靈社群：《軟體專案管理修煉之道》被評為軟體工程有史以來最佳百書的第67位，中文版銷量也非常理想。請問您是否還在創作或有計劃創作軟體管理方面的新書嗎？在本書的內容之外，您會給中國讀者哪些進一步學習的建議？

Johanna Rothman: I just released a beta book about finding a job using kanban and agile on leanpub, Manage Your job Search. It's not translated into Chinese yet. I will be releasing another hiring book soon.

Johanna Rothman：我剛剛在leanpub釋出了一本關於使用看板和敏捷方法來找工作的新書Manage Your job Search的beta版。這本書還沒有翻譯為中文。我還將釋出另一本關於招聘的新書。

I am working on an agile program management book that I will release on leanpub, tentatively titled Agile Program Management, which is how you manage large agile projects. By large, I mean many teams, starting with three teams and moving up from there. This book will address the issues of geographically distributed teams, because once you move into large programs, you have distributed teams. I hope to have something available sometime this summer. Maybe.

我還在創作一本關於敏捷方案管理的新書，將會在leanpub上釋出。這本書可能會叫做Agile Program Management，主題是如何管理大型的敏捷專案。基本上，我覺得很多團隊都是從三個團隊開始，然後不斷擴張的。這本書將會討論地理上分佈各處的團隊的問題，因為一旦要管理大型的方案，就需要面對分散式團隊。但願這本書能在今年夏天釋出一部分吧，但願啦。

iTuring: Thanks a lot for your time.

圖靈社群：感謝您撥冗接受我們的採訪。

Johanna Rothman: Thank you!

Johanna Rothman：謝謝！

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