圖形化語言Scratch之父談程式設計

2006年對Mitchel Resnick的訪談

米切爾簡介

米切爾.瑞斯尼克，麻省理工學院Papert教授，著名計算機教育專家西蒙.珀派特（Seymour Papert）的弟子和繼任者。米切爾於1978年獲普林斯頓大學物理學士，1988年獲麻省理工學院（MIT）電腦科學碩士，四年後，獲得該校博士。在上研究生之前，曾有五年時間為《商業週刊》做科學與技術記者。現在，他的研究精力放在如何幫助人們，尤其是孩子們學習未來的新東西上。
他是西蒙.帕派特 “做中學”建構主義觀的繼任者，同他的老師一樣，在他看來，好的教育不是如何讓老師教得更好，而是如何提供充分的空間和機會讓學習者去構建自己的知識體系；更進一步，他在MIT媒體實驗室的研究小組，名稱為“終身幼兒園”，開發了各種教學工具，包括“可程式設計式積木”，這也正是樂高“頭腦風暴（又稱智力風暴）”機器人的核心部件。他還是“計算機俱樂部”的創始人之一，這是一個為低收入家庭的孩子們課後提供新技術，展示自己創造力的場所。米切爾的小組最近還研究了一種新式的程式設計語言，叫做Scratch，它能夠更簡單地幫助孩子們建立活生生的，動畫遊戲或互動式藝術創作。從軟體與硬體結合，到推出純軟體的產品，這是MIT媒體實驗室低成本學習工具推廣的一部分，這種純軟的變化，使得孩子們只要有電腦，就可以通過設計和建造來做出自己的創意，這對於貧困地區和發展中國家的孩子們顯得尤其重要。

問題提問與回答(據錄音整理)

1 How did your life become connected with computers and Lego Mindstorm?
您的生活是怎樣和電腦及樂高“頭腦風暴”機器人聯絡到一起的？

MR：（3:54） More than 20 years ago, I started working with Steve Ocko. Steve and I both thought over flap it changed could build toys that controlled with computer. We are very influence to find Logo by Seymour Papert, and Logo can control a turtle on the screen, and we thought it also control thinking in the world. (5:50) Let me try. I think a question like that is a very long and a very big answer. It’s about two or three paragraphs about. We thought it started about 1984. We want to make children building in the world to make control with computer, because we thought only good for children to keep at the building for children in the world and children programming on computer.
20多年前，我開始和Steve Ocko一同工作，我們都覺得通過努力能夠做出用電腦控制的機器人。我們對Seymour Papert的Logo非常熟悉，Logo能夠控制小海龜在螢幕上的移動，我們認為它也可以用來掌控對現實的思考。我想一下，我覺得諸如此類的問題有非常費時龐大的答案，它大約有兩三個段落內容。1984年我們開始思考這個問題。我們想使孩子們通過電腦操控來做一些實踐創作活動，因為我們覺得學生們做實踐創作和電腦程式設計是很好的煅煉。
We thought it connected the computer with Lego brick. Only with a little bark will be quickly built to Lego, connect a Lego with a wire to the bark, and connect a bark to the computer. I thought it about 1984. (6:40) And we thought it a big pretential to know the children analog when they designing and building and give them an opportunity to build things better good building. Building with Lego and the children program with computer. So we get first working do it in 1984. And Lego Company came up with our products in 1988. For school, we call it Lego Logo. Could you built it with Lego, and control with Logo program language.
我們將電腦和樂高積木聯絡到一起。僅用一小塊bark就能快速地建造樂高積木，將通過導線連到bark上，然後將Bark同電腦連在一起。那大約是1984年。我們認為了解孩子們在建造和設計時是如何分析，這是十分重要的，要給他們建造東西和更好的東西的機會，通過樂高積木和電腦程式來建造。因此，我們1984年最先開始幹這項工作。1988年樂高公司開始與我們合作。為了面向學校，我們叫它Lego Logo。你可以通過Lego建造其實體，通過Logo程式來控制。
(7:28) The product introduced to school by Lego company about 1988. So we dare to think it Lego were connected with a wire to the computer. What that was a product we thought maybe you should take the computer even the whole computer inside a Lego brash. So we thought working on designing a computer on Lego Brash. We thought it started about 1988. We worked about 10 years, and ten years later, about 1988, the Lego company connected our Mindstorm as a good idea how computer designing a Lego brash.
1988年，這項產品由樂高公司推薦給學校。因此我們大膽設想它為用連線連線到電腦的Lego。這是一種可以將電腦的一部分甚到整臺電腦都裝入樂高積木塊中的產品。1988年開始。我們研究了整整十年，十年後，大約在1998年，樂高將我們的“頭腦風暴”做為一個很好的利用電腦設計的創意同樂高積木的設計聯絡起來。

2 Which role do you like better between your computer scientist and educationalist and journalist?
在科學家、教育家和記者三個角色中，您喜歡自己的哪一個角色呢？
MR：(8:56)I like the comparison(combination). I ‘m going to decide that do just one or just the other. I’m most happy when I can bring both them together. Because I think I can do were interesting thing computer thinking with education and I can do more interesting thing education with our thinking of computer. What I like can do is to bring them together. I think Journal and education , vary for journalist and educator are just help people understand things better.

我都喜歡，我有時不能決定究竟做哪一個好。我非常高興我能將二者溶為一體。因為我覺得我正在做的是有趣的電腦思考類教育問題，並且我做的更有意思的也是教育類電腦思考。我最驕傲的是將他們合在了一起。 我覺得記者和教育工作者的不同在於，他們都是幫助人們更好的思索事物。

3 You were journalist for five years. I like programming, and I think it is the same as writing. What do you think?
我喜歡程式設計，覺得它象寫作，您覺得呢？

MR: I agree. What recently we want all children be prepared computer programming because computer programming can ware first think idea where at first the writing bares think ideas. And not all children were grown on become professional writer, but so long writing is such an idea. Similarly, not call children would become professional programmers, but program are the best way to be the first think idea.
我同意你的觀點。我們現在想讓所有的孩子學習電腦程式設計是由於，電腦程式扮演了第一位的思考與思想，而剛開始是由寫作完成這項功能的。但是我們知道不是所有的孩子長大後都成為職業作家，因此很久以來寫作的意義正在於這一角色，同樣的道理，不是讓所有的孩子都成為職業程式設計師，但程式設計是最好的找出第一個思想創意的方法。
4 What do you think about Logo?

您能介紹一下您心中的Logo語言嗎？ MR:
(11:06)Logo is a very employmentive convey. Would I think Logo can help you think about the computers in new way. Maybe really I think Logo help me think children communicate with computer in thought idea and products are worked now. Perhaps, we do thought very employmentive Logo, you can think draft as Logo 25 years later. You try to do , you try by Logo computer in mother computer technology of new ideas with build the idea of Logo. This is idea of Logo, active designing. Logo is a very big big employment memory.
Logo是一種非常有益的媒介。我覺得Logo可以幫助人們通過新的方式來思考電腦。 我覺得，Logo從真正意義上幫助我，通過思想創意以及現在研製的產品。在思考孩子們如何同現在的電腦交流。或許，我們已經可以用有益的Logo思索，25年前，你就可以用Logo思考了。你可以嘗試著做，嘗試用Logo電腦去理解老的電腦技術上的新思想，通過Logo實現這些創意。這就是Logo的精神，主動地去設計。Logo是一個非常非常有益的思考。

5 What is relation between the Logo and Mindstorm Robot?
“頭腦風暴”機器人和Logo的聯絡是什麼？
MR:
(12:19)Both programming languages are designed for children. Both programming languages are designed for children these they are caring about. They both programming languages love children to organize thinking and built up ideas step by step into big and big idea. 這兩種語言都是專門用來給孩子們設計的，都是設計了孩子們關心和喜歡的東西，二者都希望孩子們通過一步步地建造越來越大的創意，來組織思想和創造想法。

6 What programming language will we use in the future? Such as c, or c++, not children languages ?

將來我們會用什麼程式語言？例如C或C++，但不是孩子們的語言。
MR: (13:10) I can tell you. I didn’t think that is important. Let me retell the language scratch. It is not an important language that we use. We can design use many different languages. What much more important to designing help children make use about it. It happened when we design scratch rebuilt built in a language called scgrate use for the birth of a small park. So we designed the language for the cricket, redesigned for the job. But I don’t think that very important.
我想說的是，我覺得那是不重要的。我重提一下前面說過的scratch語言。它不是一種我們應用的重要的語言，我們可以通過各種語言來做設計活動。更加重要的是幫助孩子們設計以及對其進行應用。我們設計scratch是由於在通過scgrate語言設計一個小公園時偶然發生的。因此，我們為“蟋蟀”設計了這種語言，並重新設計了它。但我不覺得那是非常重要的。
That was decision that we made when we happen to do. It’s a little about my care thing. It’s question he building make a brash what do exact chemical composition of the transit. That’s important to designing the start and design different pieces was very important. The chemical composition of the transit that were important. I use course to make (14:06) such as happened children care about and the composition of the chemical and the require thing. Similarly, I think it’s most important to design to use interesting to wake we use about.
這就是我們在偶然中得到的結果。這並不是我喜歡的東西。它是在做化學化合物轉化實驗時而有的。設計好開始和其中的每一部分是非常重要的，化學化合物的轉化也是很重要的。我通過課程使學生對化合物 和其他所需的東西感興趣。
同樣的，我覺得很重要的是通過設計使學生喚醒自己對研究事物的興趣。
6A The Lego products of Mindstorm robot and others , I think others is not good for designing for creative things, What do you think about it?
樂高“頭腦風暴”機器人和其他樂高產品，我覺得其他的產品不如可程式設計產品更能進行有創意的設計活動，您覺得呢？
MR: (14:42) The first important and more important is most about the similarity. What similar is both involve children designing and creative thing. We designed how other people block were programming robot is both for children creating and designing thing. That’s for important. To the similar, to the most important for similar, The different between programming robot we make the examine to move , and interact, and react thing , with the traditional Lego product , we could start , make our own state on this way.
最重要和更重要的方面是關於相似性。這種相似性同時發生在孩子們設計和創造性活動中。我們的“頭腦風暴”機器人也是為孩子們設計和創造性活動服務的，這一點是最重要的。同樣的道理，最重要的東西是，在可程式設計機器人和傳統樂高產品之間，是我們要以做一些動態的、可互動的，有反作用的考察，我們可以通過自己的方式開始，做出我們自己的東西。

6B In the begin of your lecture you give us a question about TV, Computer and Paintbrush. I think the programming robot is more useful and important than other Lego products, because my emotion about programming language. What do you think?
您在演講的開始給了大家一個問題：電視、電腦和畫筆中選擇一個和另外一個不同的東西，由於我對程式語言的特殊感情，我覺得可程式設計機器人比其他的樂高產品更有用和重要。您的想法是什麼呢？
MR：(16:03)I disagree. If I understand you can do what I think about imagination is regularly Lego brick also. They both put your imagination. You can have result by my talk about paintbrush. We could paint different kind of thing with the paintbrush , you can paint very different style, you both use such special obivious for real lative picture or act drive picture. You serve your discussion. The Lego brick product and programming Lego robot are both for discussion for different way of imagination. You use your imagination of the different pit of imagination. Reflect the pit thing , you walk your imagining thing stand on go you imagining thing to the moving. That is different, walking on the point you both use imagining and creative thing.
我不同意你的觀點。如果我沒理解錯你的話，我認為樂高積木也能很好地展示想象力。兩類產品都能展示你的想象力，你從我關於畫筆的講話中也能找到答案。我們可以通過畫筆畫各種各樣的東西，各種不同型別的東西，你可以用它來畫想象中的或現實中的任何圖畫。你可以用它來表達自己的想法。樂高積木和可程式設計機器人都可以用來從不同的角度表達各種不同的想法。你可以盡情地發揮你的各種想象力，反映各種事物，

7 Can you introduce Constructionisum and your cooperation with Prof. Seymour Papert?

MR: 我讀博士時，Seymour是我的導師，是對我一生影響最大的人，我的許多許多理念來自於和他合作時的收穫，Seymour的理論來源於皮亞傑。
皮亞傑的理論稱為建構主義，人們主動地學習建造自己的知識結構。而西蒙的理論是關於什麼是最好的幫助孩子們建立知識的方法——通過在現實世界來建構。
皮亞傑，建立知識；西蒙，在現實生活中建造是一種好的建立知識的方法。
Seymour built top that how people build a knowledge. Piage has the theory called constructionisum. People actively learn build building up their own knowledge. Seymour’s theory is what is the best way to help people build a knowledge_ building in the world. Piaget:Building knowledge Seymour:by building things in the world is a good way building knowledge

8 Can you tell a little about you life? What do you teach your childrens and students?
請您介紹一下自己的情況好嗎？您怎樣教自己的學生和孩子們？
MR:You can ask how about my way. There are many good things about my own learning in different part. I think what think about myself my parents were how enough to love me to take up a back yard to make my own mini gulf sport in the back yard. He can let a lot to by building my own mini gulf sport learning a lot faster. So I think early learning age by designing is a good way for me for learn. (1:27:30)I think for me I was very interested in for how help other people understand thing. After university, I worked journalist for several number years. That is one way demanded understand thing. After that I came to education and that is another way about understand thing. (1:28:30) I think teaching thing to other people and other children. You must port balance between give people the freedom working the care about how to match important idea. The teacher’s work is to give people the freedom work they care about on he to make connection to important idea. Connecting interesting Connect ideas
你問關於我們已的方法。在不同的階段我有一些不同的自己的學習方法。現在回想起來，我非常感謝自己的父母在我很小的時候放縱我在自己家的後院裡建立了一個迷你高爾夫球場，正是對這個迷你球場的建造中使我學到了非常多的東西。因此很小的時候我就感悟到，通過設計來學習是一種非常好的屬於我的學習方法。我認為自己對幫助人們怎樣理解事物很有興趣。大學後，我作了幾年記者。這也是需要理解事物的方式。那之後，我進入教育界，那也是另一種理解事情的方式，我認為教給他人和孩子事情。你必須平衡，給人們自己關注工作的自由與如何匹配重要的創意。教師的工作是促成人們的自由工作與重要創意的聯結。